<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Blank Page Heroine</title>
	<atom:link href="http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/</link>
	<description>writing, reading, eating, drinking, sport</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:42:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Book Smugglers &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smugglivus: Airing of Grievances</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-85712</link>
		<dc:creator>The Book Smugglers &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smugglivus: Airing of Grievances</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-85712</guid>
		<description>[...] heroine.&#8221; Justine Larbalestier also wrote her own post about the archetype she calls &#8220;The Girlfriend.&#8221; (Please note in both cases, no names are named for examples of these types of heroines [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] heroine.&#8221; Justine Larbalestier also wrote her own post about the archetype she calls &#8220;The Girlfriend.&#8221; (Please note in both cases, no names are named for examples of these types of heroines [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justine</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-85493</link>
		<dc:creator>Justine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-85493</guid>
		<description>Tiferet: &lt;i&gt;But Bella has a personality and I admire her force of will even when I think she makes horrid decisions.&lt;/i&gt;

I love your reading of &lt;i&gt;Twlight&lt;/i&gt;. Very compelling. You&#039;ve captured what appeals (and repels) about Bella &amp; Edward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tiferet: <i>But Bella has a personality and I admire her force of will even when I think she makes horrid decisions.</i></p>
<p>I love your reading of <i>Twlight</i>. Very compelling. You&#8217;ve captured what appeals (and repels) about Bella &#038; Edward.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tiferet</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-85423</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiferet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 03:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-85423</guid>
		<description>Okay, I enjoyed Twilight et sequelae a great deal, and I am surprised that so many people think Bella is a BPH, because I actually like her rather a lot. Bella is profoundly messed up, and her parents are essentially useless--to a great degree she has to take care of them, and it has shaped her.  Because of this and because Bella is distrustful of normal people I actually identified with her far more than I thought I would after hearing other people say that she was blank, uninteresting, absent &amp;c.  Bella is in my opinion an amazingly strong character, just not always a likeable one.  Despite the fact that Edward is rather dictatorial, she ALWAYS gets her way.   IDK--my parents are divorced and they were both alcoholic, and I had to take care of things for them a lot, and I was never able to communicate well with kids whose lives were more normal than mine, so I did not trust them even when they wanted to be friends.  Bella in first person describes this state of mind very, very well, and is drawn to the Cullens and to Edward because of their &lt;em&gt;strangeness&lt;/em&gt;; the only other people she likes are the Quileutes who are also different from what she thinks of as &quot;normal&quot;.  

I like to say I wouldn&#039;t have put up with some of Edward&#039;s BS, but looking back in my life I am not so sure of that if I&#039;d met him at 17.  (BTW I think Edward is exactly what a man who last dated human women in 1918 and has his brain chemistry permanently stuck in late adolescence plus weird vampire powers would be like.)

At any rate...Bella and Edward both have their moments of being toweringly unlikeable, but I do like them--and it&#039;s important to remember that Stephenie Meyer loves Wuthering Heights. Both of them have in common with Heathcliff and Cathy that incredible force of will, and they are going to get their way no matter what.  They&#039;re far more likeable and less destructive (I did not like Wuthering Heights), in my opinion.  But Bella has a personality and I admire her force of will even when I think she makes horrid decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I enjoyed Twilight et sequelae a great deal, and I am surprised that so many people think Bella is a BPH, because I actually like her rather a lot. Bella is profoundly messed up, and her parents are essentially useless&#8211;to a great degree she has to take care of them, and it has shaped her.  Because of this and because Bella is distrustful of normal people I actually identified with her far more than I thought I would after hearing other people say that she was blank, uninteresting, absent &amp;c.  Bella is in my opinion an amazingly strong character, just not always a likeable one.  Despite the fact that Edward is rather dictatorial, she ALWAYS gets her way.   IDK&#8211;my parents are divorced and they were both alcoholic, and I had to take care of things for them a lot, and I was never able to communicate well with kids whose lives were more normal than mine, so I did not trust them even when they wanted to be friends.  Bella in first person describes this state of mind very, very well, and is drawn to the Cullens and to Edward because of their <em>strangeness</em>; the only other people she likes are the Quileutes who are also different from what she thinks of as &#8220;normal&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I like to say I wouldn&#8217;t have put up with some of Edward&#8217;s BS, but looking back in my life I am not so sure of that if I&#8217;d met him at 17.  (BTW I think Edward is exactly what a man who last dated human women in 1918 and has his brain chemistry permanently stuck in late adolescence plus weird vampire powers would be like.)</p>
<p>At any rate&#8230;Bella and Edward both have their moments of being toweringly unlikeable, but I do like them&#8211;and it&#8217;s important to remember that Stephenie Meyer loves Wuthering Heights. Both of them have in common with Heathcliff and Cathy that incredible force of will, and they are going to get their way no matter what.  They&#8217;re far more likeable and less destructive (I did not like Wuthering Heights), in my opinion.  But Bella has a personality and I admire her force of will even when I think she makes horrid decisions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Book Smugglers &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smugglers&#8217; Stash and News (The One Where Thea Is MIA)</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84969</link>
		<dc:creator>The Book Smugglers &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Smugglers&#8217; Stash and News (The One Where Thea Is MIA)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84969</guid>
		<description>[...] and mentions the Blank Page Heroine. Justine Larbalestier picked up the term and talked about it on her own blog . Make sure to read the comments &#8211; they are great [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and mentions the Blank Page Heroine. Justine Larbalestier picked up the term and talked about it on her own blog . Make sure to read the comments &#8211; they are great [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Monday Morning Stepback &#171;</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84890</link>
		<dc:creator>Monday Morning Stepback &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84890</guid>
		<description>[...] author Justine Larbalestier (of the Liar cover controversy) on The Blank Page Heroine, with a link to Demon&#8217;s Lexicon author Sarah Rees Brennan&#8217;s musings about the romance [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] author Justine Larbalestier (of the Liar cover controversy) on The Blank Page Heroine, with a link to Demon&#8217;s Lexicon author Sarah Rees Brennan&#8217;s musings about the romance [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Julia Rios</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84876</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia Rios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84876</guid>
		<description>Nora Roberts has a few different modes. There&#039;s Romantic Suspense mode, Contemporary Non-Supernatural mode, and Contemporary Supernatural mode. I&#039;m not the person to recommend things in the first category because, although I do read Romantic Suspense on occasion, it&#039;s not one of my most loved things. 

If you like straight Contemporary, you might try picking up &lt;i&gt;Vision in White&lt;/i&gt;, which came out last spring, and is the first in a quartet about wedding planners in Connecticut. The second, &lt;i&gt;Bed of Roses&lt;/i&gt; is out now, but I haven&#039;t yet read it. 

For Contemporary Supernatural, I would go with either &lt;i&gt;Blue Dahlia&lt;/i&gt;, which is the first of a ghost story trilogy set in a nursery (plants, not babies) near Memphis, TN, or &lt;i&gt;Dance Upon the Air&lt;/i&gt; (first of a trilogy about witches on a small New England island).  Any book you pick up should be able to stand alone as well, so you can skip to other volumes if you prefer. I particularly liked that the second in the nursery ghost story trilogy featured an older (by romance standards, I mean--mid to late 40s) heroine. 

I can&#039;t say whether you&#039;ll like any of these, but I definitely feel that Nora Roberts understands something about how to trigger comforting fantasies in a lot of people, and it&#039;s worth exploring a bit of her work just to see how she pulls that off. Plus, like I said before about the women being strong and not blank pages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nora Roberts has a few different modes. There&#8217;s Romantic Suspense mode, Contemporary Non-Supernatural mode, and Contemporary Supernatural mode. I&#8217;m not the person to recommend things in the first category because, although I do read Romantic Suspense on occasion, it&#8217;s not one of my most loved things. </p>
<p>If you like straight Contemporary, you might try picking up <i>Vision in White</i>, which came out last spring, and is the first in a quartet about wedding planners in Connecticut. The second, <i>Bed of Roses</i> is out now, but I haven&#8217;t yet read it. </p>
<p>For Contemporary Supernatural, I would go with either <i>Blue Dahlia</i>, which is the first of a ghost story trilogy set in a nursery (plants, not babies) near Memphis, TN, or <i>Dance Upon the Air</i> (first of a trilogy about witches on a small New England island).  Any book you pick up should be able to stand alone as well, so you can skip to other volumes if you prefer. I particularly liked that the second in the nursery ghost story trilogy featured an older (by romance standards, I mean&#8211;mid to late 40s) heroine. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t say whether you&#8217;ll like any of these, but I definitely feel that Nora Roberts understands something about how to trigger comforting fantasies in a lot of people, and it&#8217;s worth exploring a bit of her work just to see how she pulls that off. Plus, like I said before about the women being strong and not blank pages.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: angharad</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84845</link>
		<dc:creator>angharad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84845</guid>
		<description>Nor to be told what kind of books we shouldn&#039;t write and what kind of books we shouldn&#039;t read, as happened in the snappy, but profoundly meanspirited, rant that Jonathan Walker linked to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nor to be told what kind of books we shouldn&#8217;t write and what kind of books we shouldn&#8217;t read, as happened in the snappy, but profoundly meanspirited, rant that Jonathan Walker linked to.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: moonspinner</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84839</link>
		<dc:creator>moonspinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84839</guid>
		<description>Sarah Rees Brennan: I don&#039;t doubt your intention. I just think that there is a distinction between the character you desrcibe now as poorly written because her story is given less weight than the boy&#039;s,  and what you described earlier as a blank character, written deliberately so that the reader can &quot;insert&quot; her personality into the character&#039;s. (Trying to avoid names for Justine&#039;s sake), in the example that you used, the female lead is described solely in reference to her boyfriend; but the same applies to him. Indeed, he is &lt;i&gt;her&lt;/i&gt; wish-fulfillment lover,  not the other way around; and even though they both only exist in the context of their relationship with each other, there is enough difference in their personalities and values that there is a conflict in the romance.

I&#039;ve always felt that the point of feminism was that women had more choices. Period. Not that women Had To Kick-Ass or women Had To Pawn Their Boyfriends/Lovers/Significant Others. Today&#039;s culture of condemning women for not being a certain kick-ass type -fierce, ballsy, witty, eccentric  - isn&#039;t any different from yesteryear&#039;s culture of condemning women for not being a certain demure type. I&#039;d still have loved Melanie even if she hadn&#039;t been the one to pull that gun. But for a lot of others, that is the moment that redeems her.  I&#039;m speaking as someone who has left many theatres going, &quot;What an awesome woman/girl/female alien creature&quot;, only to get to the message boards and see several threads with the varying theme of &quot;Awesome Obscure (Male) Redshirt #37&quot; (if I&#039;m lucky) and several others with the theme of &quot;Who Else Hated That Mary Sue/Bitch/Whore?&quot; (if I&#039;m not).

In other words, I would have enjoyed the essay more if it had just focused on the things Sarah liked about the female heroines she had read. Intentions are all well and good but fandom really doesn&#039;t need one more item to add to the list of &quot;Why Female Characters Suck.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah Rees Brennan: I don&#8217;t doubt your intention. I just think that there is a distinction between the character you desrcibe now as poorly written because her story is given less weight than the boy&#8217;s,  and what you described earlier as a blank character, written deliberately so that the reader can &#8220;insert&#8221; her personality into the character&#8217;s. (Trying to avoid names for Justine&#8217;s sake), in the example that you used, the female lead is described solely in reference to her boyfriend; but the same applies to him. Indeed, he is <i>her</i> wish-fulfillment lover,  not the other way around; and even though they both only exist in the context of their relationship with each other, there is enough difference in their personalities and values that there is a conflict in the romance.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always felt that the point of feminism was that women had more choices. Period. Not that women Had To Kick-Ass or women Had To Pawn Their Boyfriends/Lovers/Significant Others. Today&#8217;s culture of condemning women for not being a certain kick-ass type -fierce, ballsy, witty, eccentric  &#8211; isn&#8217;t any different from yesteryear&#8217;s culture of condemning women for not being a certain demure type. I&#8217;d still have loved Melanie even if she hadn&#8217;t been the one to pull that gun. But for a lot of others, that is the moment that redeems her.  I&#8217;m speaking as someone who has left many theatres going, &#8220;What an awesome woman/girl/female alien creature&#8221;, only to get to the message boards and see several threads with the varying theme of &#8220;Awesome Obscure (Male) Redshirt #37&#8243; (if I&#8217;m lucky) and several others with the theme of &#8220;Who Else Hated That Mary Sue/Bitch/Whore?&#8221; (if I&#8217;m not).</p>
<p>In other words, I would have enjoyed the essay more if it had just focused on the things Sarah liked about the female heroines she had read. Intentions are all well and good but fandom really doesn&#8217;t need one more item to add to the list of &#8220;Why Female Characters Suck.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PixelFish</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84835</link>
		<dc:creator>PixelFish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84835</guid>
		<description>Sean: This is just me, but I say you should establish personality from the get-go. Earlier in the month, Scott had a writing tip about the dialogue spine--and one thing I thought that was useful for was seeing if the characters could be discernible as themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean: This is just me, but I say you should establish personality from the get-go. Earlier in the month, Scott had a writing tip about the dialogue spine&#8211;and one thing I thought that was useful for was seeing if the characters could be discernible as themselves.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84831</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84831</guid>
		<description>Wow. This is a fascinating, if somewhat uncomfortable, discussion (uncomfortable because I&#039;m starting to see--well, let&#039;s just say there are some ways in which my writing needs to improve).  Glad I read all of the comments.

@Diana, great explanation.  I finally understand what people mean when they talk about &quot;strong female characters.&quot;

I wonder if to some extent, a character appearing to be Blank Page at the beginning of the story might help draw readers in (I feel like this happens in Harry Potter, where Harry starts out as a regular every-kid who happens to have bad things happen to him, but doesn&#039;t show a lot of personality, and then slowly deepens out into a real character).  Or should you establish a character&#039;s personality as strongly as you can from the get-go?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. This is a fascinating, if somewhat uncomfortable, discussion (uncomfortable because I&#8217;m starting to see&#8211;well, let&#8217;s just say there are some ways in which my writing needs to improve).  Glad I read all of the comments.</p>
<p>@Diana, great explanation.  I finally understand what people mean when they talk about &#8220;strong female characters.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder if to some extent, a character appearing to be Blank Page at the beginning of the story might help draw readers in (I feel like this happens in Harry Potter, where Harry starts out as a regular every-kid who happens to have bad things happen to him, but doesn&#8217;t show a lot of personality, and then slowly deepens out into a real character).  Or should you establish a character&#8217;s personality as strongly as you can from the get-go?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John H</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84829</link>
		<dc:creator>John H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84829</guid>
		<description>With regards to &lt;i&gt;Twilight&lt;/i&gt;, it&#039;s kind of hard to view Bella as a BPH simply because it&#039;s a first-person narrative from her perspective. Whatever lack of personality she may have, she is still central to the story.

That said, had the stories been written from Edward&#039;s POV she might very well have slipped into the BPH role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regards to <i>Twilight</i>, it&#8217;s kind of hard to view Bella as a BPH simply because it&#8217;s a first-person narrative from her perspective. Whatever lack of personality she may have, she is still central to the story.</p>
<p>That said, had the stories been written from Edward&#8217;s POV she might very well have slipped into the BPH role.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sarah Rees Brennan</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84826</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Rees Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84826</guid>
		<description>moonspinner: I really don&#039;t think many people having this discussion are looking for an excuse to dislike female characters: we want to love them, and do love many of them, and are talking about a trend that disturbs us. Doesn&#039;t matter to me when Gone with the Wind was written - Scarlett and Melanie are both great characters. Melanie being sweet doesn&#039;t make her a Blank Page heroine - her fierce love for her friend, willingness to defend her home, her affectionate sympathy for Belle and Rhett and others - all make her stand out. I will go further and name Chloe, the heroine of Kelley Armstrong&#039;s Darkest Powers trilogy, as a modern heroine who reminds me of Melanie a little. She&#039;s shy, sweet, and very nice: she&#039;s also passionately into movies and defines a lot of the crazy situations she&#039;s gets into by them, has a fraught relationship with another girl that&#039;s an important part of the second book, and well - there&#039;s a lot of there there. 

While with regards to fiction most things are subjective, I do think that there are heroines out there who do not have inner lives and familial and friend relationships to complicate the course of true love. I  agree with Justine that Bella is not a good example of a Blank Page Heroine (Plus, poor Twilight! I&#039;m tired of seeing it bagged on), but when you described her, you described her solely in reference to her boyfriend. Which is very easy to do with lots of books! That&#039;s one of the problems - we&#039;re all really used to seeing men privileged, having what&#039;s going on with them be seen as more important, so we don&#039;t notice things like the heroine&#039;s life being given far less weight than the hero&#039;s when it happens - we&#039;re conditioned to think that&#039;s normal. Which makes it valuable, I think, to step back and say &#039;This is something that disturbs me - here are some books with heroines who are chock full of personality and isn&#039;t it awesome&#039; and have everyone consider the idea, and look for and write heroines with personality. Which can&#039;t be a bad thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>moonspinner: I really don&#8217;t think many people having this discussion are looking for an excuse to dislike female characters: we want to love them, and do love many of them, and are talking about a trend that disturbs us. Doesn&#8217;t matter to me when Gone with the Wind was written &#8211; Scarlett and Melanie are both great characters. Melanie being sweet doesn&#8217;t make her a Blank Page heroine &#8211; her fierce love for her friend, willingness to defend her home, her affectionate sympathy for Belle and Rhett and others &#8211; all make her stand out. I will go further and name Chloe, the heroine of Kelley Armstrong&#8217;s Darkest Powers trilogy, as a modern heroine who reminds me of Melanie a little. She&#8217;s shy, sweet, and very nice: she&#8217;s also passionately into movies and defines a lot of the crazy situations she&#8217;s gets into by them, has a fraught relationship with another girl that&#8217;s an important part of the second book, and well &#8211; there&#8217;s a lot of there there. </p>
<p>While with regards to fiction most things are subjective, I do think that there are heroines out there who do not have inner lives and familial and friend relationships to complicate the course of true love. I  agree with Justine that Bella is not a good example of a Blank Page Heroine (Plus, poor Twilight! I&#8217;m tired of seeing it bagged on), but when you described her, you described her solely in reference to her boyfriend. Which is very easy to do with lots of books! That&#8217;s one of the problems &#8211; we&#8217;re all really used to seeing men privileged, having what&#8217;s going on with them be seen as more important, so we don&#8217;t notice things like the heroine&#8217;s life being given far less weight than the hero&#8217;s when it happens &#8211; we&#8217;re conditioned to think that&#8217;s normal. Which makes it valuable, I think, to step back and say &#8216;This is something that disturbs me &#8211; here are some books with heroines who are chock full of personality and isn&#8217;t it awesome&#8217; and have everyone consider the idea, and look for and write heroines with personality. Which can&#8217;t be a bad thing!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84823</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84823</guid>
		<description>I wonder if we read books where the heroine is rescued by the hero because it is an escape.  Wouldn&#039;t it be nice sometimes in real life to have someone else come in and take care of everything.  Because in real life - we know - women are so often the ones doing so much of the hard work at home.  We clean up the messes.  So escapist literature has an appeal. 

At the same time, I agree with the article linked to by Johnathan that &quot;love that is self-abnegating, all-consuming, and totally erases any kind of independence looks a lot more like domestic violence than fabulous romance.&quot;

Such mixed messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if we read books where the heroine is rescued by the hero because it is an escape.  Wouldn&#8217;t it be nice sometimes in real life to have someone else come in and take care of everything.  Because in real life &#8211; we know &#8211; women are so often the ones doing so much of the hard work at home.  We clean up the messes.  So escapist literature has an appeal. </p>
<p>At the same time, I agree with the article linked to by Johnathan that &#8220;love that is self-abnegating, all-consuming, and totally erases any kind of independence looks a lot more like domestic violence than fabulous romance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Such mixed messages.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: moonspinner</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84821</link>
		<dc:creator>moonspinner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84821</guid>
		<description>Thanks to Diana for that comment about Scarlett and Melanie. I am afraid that if Gone With the Wind were to be published now, too many girls would call Melanie a Blank Page Heroine and hate on Scarlett. 

I am still uncomfortable with the realization that Blank Page Heroines is just an acceptable way of hating on a female character that one does not like, as evidenced by some of the comments on this and the other blogs. I still think it&#039;s very subjective, because I honestly have never come across a blank page character. I have come across many characters that I dislike and many flat and unfortunate stereotypes for women and minorities. But BLANK? How is that even possible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to Diana for that comment about Scarlett and Melanie. I am afraid that if Gone With the Wind were to be published now, too many girls would call Melanie a Blank Page Heroine and hate on Scarlett. </p>
<p>I am still uncomfortable with the realization that Blank Page Heroines is just an acceptable way of hating on a female character that one does not like, as evidenced by some of the comments on this and the other blogs. I still think it&#8217;s very subjective, because I honestly have never come across a blank page character. I have come across many characters that I dislike and many flat and unfortunate stereotypes for women and minorities. But BLANK? How is that even possible?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justine</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84815</link>
		<dc:creator>Justine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84815</guid>
		<description>Jonathan Walker: Oh, dear. I see what you mean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan Walker: Oh, dear. I see what you mean.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Walker</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84813</guid>
		<description>This is the link referred to @15 (which I don&#039;t think the original commenter followed up on):

http://www.therejectionist.com/2009/11/todays-book-review.html

N.B. The review does &#039;bag&#039; on a living author&#039;s new novel, so I imagine our hostess would advise to proceed with caution and not to repeat the specific criticism here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the link referred to @15 (which I don&#8217;t think the original commenter followed up on):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.therejectionist.com/2009/11/todays-book-review.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.therejectionist.com/2009/11/todays-book-review.html</a></p>
<p>N.B. The review does &#8216;bag&#8217; on a living author&#8217;s new novel, so I imagine our hostess would advise to proceed with caution and not to repeat the specific criticism here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kristan</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-2/#comment-84804</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84804</guid>
		<description>Justine, I recommend starting with Honest Illusions or The Reef if you&#039;re looking to read Nora Roberts. They&#039;re great standalones. And Honest Illusions was my first ever fave book (although it&#039;s no longer my only fave book, haha, because I&#039;m awful at picking faves).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justine, I recommend starting with Honest Illusions or The Reef if you&#8217;re looking to read Nora Roberts. They&#8217;re great standalones. And Honest Illusions was my first ever fave book (although it&#8217;s no longer my only fave book, haha, because I&#8217;m awful at picking faves).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Julie Polk</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84802</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Polk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84802</guid>
		<description>Diana,

That&#039;s a great distinction.  And I&#039;m so glad you brought up Gone With The Wind.  I read - devoured, more like - GWTW repeatedly from the time I was about ten. I wasn&#039;t thinking about any of these issues consciously, but I&#039;m sure that even as a young reader, a large part of what held my attention was the vividness and believability of Scarlett and Melanie&#039;s relationship.  I&#039;m sure I would have demanded strongly written female characters on my own eventually if I hadn&#039;t stumbled onto them early on, but I also know that that relationship is still incredibly vivid to me (and I haven&#039;t read that book in 25 years).  I feel pretty lucky that those were some of the first impressions I had of what female characters could be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diana,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a great distinction.  And I&#8217;m so glad you brought up Gone With The Wind.  I read &#8211; devoured, more like &#8211; GWTW repeatedly from the time I was about ten. I wasn&#8217;t thinking about any of these issues consciously, but I&#8217;m sure that even as a young reader, a large part of what held my attention was the vividness and believability of Scarlett and Melanie&#8217;s relationship.  I&#8217;m sure I would have demanded strongly written female characters on my own eventually if I hadn&#8217;t stumbled onto them early on, but I also know that that relationship is still incredibly vivid to me (and I haven&#8217;t read that book in 25 years).  I feel pretty lucky that those were some of the first impressions I had of what female characters could be.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justine</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84800</link>
		<dc:creator>Justine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84800</guid>
		<description>Diana: You&#039;ve put your finger on the miscommunication happening here. I fear some have read BPH as meaning &quot;weak&quot; or &quot;ordinary&quot; but there are many wonderful characters like Melanie who are not even remotely PBH. 

And, yes, there are lots of &quot;arse kicking&quot; heroines who are also BPH because that&#039;s all there is to them. There&#039;s no there there.

The problem is not &quot;strength&quot; or &quot;weakness&quot; but three-dimensionality. 

I also agree with Skaldi above who says the word &quot;heroine&quot; is part of the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diana: You&#8217;ve put your finger on the miscommunication happening here. I fear some have read BPH as meaning &#8220;weak&#8221; or &#8220;ordinary&#8221; but there are many wonderful characters like Melanie who are not even remotely PBH. </p>
<p>And, yes, there are lots of &#8220;arse kicking&#8221; heroines who are also BPH because that&#8217;s all there is to them. There&#8217;s no there there.</p>
<p>The problem is not &#8220;strength&#8221; or &#8220;weakness&#8221; but three-dimensionality. </p>
<p>I also agree with Skaldi above who says the word &#8220;heroine&#8221; is part of the problem.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Diana Peterfreund</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84799</link>
		<dc:creator>Diana Peterfreund</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:51:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84799</guid>
		<description>Okay, I want to make a distinction here between &quot;Blank Page&quot; characters and characters who are actually weak -- if fully fleshed out -- people. 

Characters can be every bit as blank page if they are blankly strong, kick butt kind of girls. There&#039;s are legions of utterly forgettable &quot;kick butt&quot; kind of girls -- good with a sword/stake/gun but no discernable personality. The reason Hermione is such a great character is not BECAUSE she&#039;s a powerful witch, it&#039;s because she&#039;s a powerful witch, she&#039;s a stick in the mud when it comes to rules, she&#039;s a total bookworm and utterly unashamed of it, she&#039;s really bossy, she doesn&#039;t fit in with girls her age, and she&#039;s got a cool social justice streak in her. These are all PARTS of Hermione, good, bad, strong, weak, well-rounded.

It&#039;s like that essay on Overhtinking it. 
http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/
To paraphrase:
Enough with strong female characters. What you really want are strong characters, female. 

And that means sometimes you get scaredy cat female characters. Sometimes you get evil female characters. Sometimes you get bossy ones, stubborn ones, cowardly ones.

Of course, the problem with these Blank Page characters is they aren&#039;t being coded in the text as &quot;hey, this person doesn&#039;t have a strong enough personality to stand up to the overwhelming hero who would like to remold her in the shape of a Stepford Wife!&quot; There is a tacit approval to not having any there there, whether &quot;there&quot; is kick assedness or &quot;i&#039;d like to go run and hide now&quot; ed-ness. 

One example (and here I&#039;m going to talk about the movie, because that&#039;s what most people are familiar with) is Scarlet O&#039;Hara and Melanie Wilkes of Gone with the Wind. Now, in the film, Scarlet is an incredibly strong character -- literally. She holds Tara together with her bare hands, is incredibly loyal, whips horses and people when necessary, gets s*** done. She is also cruel, selfish, vain, proud... she&#039;s fantastically complex. And she looks down on her sister in law, Melanie, who is a much more proper Southern lady, and is also incredibly kind and generous. But over and over again, you see that Melanie&#039;s strength, though she&#039;s not the kind of person who can do what Scarlet does, has its own beauty. She&#039;s brave in very quiet ways: she refuses to snub the town whore just because it&#039;s the proper thing to do, because she knows the whore saved her husband&#039;s life. When Rhett and other conspire to humiliate Scarlett at Ashley&#039;s party, Melanie trust in her deep personal faith and love for Scarlett and takes her hand. They are quieter moments -- the don&#039;t involve a whip and a gun (though Melanie can also kick ass with a gun when the chips are down and Scarlet is about to get raped) but they are very interesting and show that Melanie is a complex individual with ehr own take on things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I want to make a distinction here between &#8220;Blank Page&#8221; characters and characters who are actually weak &#8212; if fully fleshed out &#8212; people. </p>
<p>Characters can be every bit as blank page if they are blankly strong, kick butt kind of girls. There&#8217;s are legions of utterly forgettable &#8220;kick butt&#8221; kind of girls &#8212; good with a sword/stake/gun but no discernable personality. The reason Hermione is such a great character is not BECAUSE she&#8217;s a powerful witch, it&#8217;s because she&#8217;s a powerful witch, she&#8217;s a stick in the mud when it comes to rules, she&#8217;s a total bookworm and utterly unashamed of it, she&#8217;s really bossy, she doesn&#8217;t fit in with girls her age, and she&#8217;s got a cool social justice streak in her. These are all PARTS of Hermione, good, bad, strong, weak, well-rounded.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like that essay on Overhtinking it.<br />
<a href="http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/" rel="nofollow">http://www.overthinkingit.com/2008/08/18/why-strong-female-characters-are-bad-for-women/</a><br />
To paraphrase:<br />
Enough with strong female characters. What you really want are strong characters, female. </p>
<p>And that means sometimes you get scaredy cat female characters. Sometimes you get evil female characters. Sometimes you get bossy ones, stubborn ones, cowardly ones.</p>
<p>Of course, the problem with these Blank Page characters is they aren&#8217;t being coded in the text as &#8220;hey, this person doesn&#8217;t have a strong enough personality to stand up to the overwhelming hero who would like to remold her in the shape of a Stepford Wife!&#8221; There is a tacit approval to not having any there there, whether &#8220;there&#8221; is kick assedness or &#8220;i&#8217;d like to go run and hide now&#8221; ed-ness. </p>
<p>One example (and here I&#8217;m going to talk about the movie, because that&#8217;s what most people are familiar with) is Scarlet O&#8217;Hara and Melanie Wilkes of Gone with the Wind. Now, in the film, Scarlet is an incredibly strong character &#8212; literally. She holds Tara together with her bare hands, is incredibly loyal, whips horses and people when necessary, gets s*** done. She is also cruel, selfish, vain, proud&#8230; she&#8217;s fantastically complex. And she looks down on her sister in law, Melanie, who is a much more proper Southern lady, and is also incredibly kind and generous. But over and over again, you see that Melanie&#8217;s strength, though she&#8217;s not the kind of person who can do what Scarlet does, has its own beauty. She&#8217;s brave in very quiet ways: she refuses to snub the town whore just because it&#8217;s the proper thing to do, because she knows the whore saved her husband&#8217;s life. When Rhett and other conspire to humiliate Scarlett at Ashley&#8217;s party, Melanie trust in her deep personal faith and love for Scarlett and takes her hand. They are quieter moments &#8212; the don&#8217;t involve a whip and a gun (though Melanie can also kick ass with a gun when the chips are down and Scarlet is about to get raped) but they are very interesting and show that Melanie is a complex individual with ehr own take on things.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shveta Thakrar</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84798</link>
		<dc:creator>Shveta Thakrar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84798</guid>
		<description>*clap, clap, clap*

I&#039;ll have to go back and read Sarah&#039;s post, too.  Thanks, Justine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*clap, clap, clap*</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to go back and read Sarah&#8217;s post, too.  Thanks, Justine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PixelFish</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84797</link>
		<dc:creator>PixelFish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84797</guid>
		<description>Argh! Why can&#039;t I remember to put all of these notes in one post. Sorry, Justine. I meant to say that if you want to try Jenny Crusie, I&#039;d recommend Welcome to Temptation, Faking It, or Bet Me as good places to start. (I don&#039;t like her novels where she tag teams with a male author she knows as much. It&#039;s like getting a Reese&#039;s peanut butter cup that has the wrong proportions of peanut butter to chocolate, when you were expecting something else.) 

I first found out about Crusie because of a series of posts on writing successful sex scenes. (Which I would link to but I can&#039;t find it anymore.) So instead I will leave you with this blog post of Crusie&#039;s: 

http://www.jennycrusie.com/for-writers/essays/glee-and-sympathy/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Argh! Why can&#8217;t I remember to put all of these notes in one post. Sorry, Justine. I meant to say that if you want to try Jenny Crusie, I&#8217;d recommend Welcome to Temptation, Faking It, or Bet Me as good places to start. (I don&#8217;t like her novels where she tag teams with a male author she knows as much. It&#8217;s like getting a Reese&#8217;s peanut butter cup that has the wrong proportions of peanut butter to chocolate, when you were expecting something else.) </p>
<p>I first found out about Crusie because of a series of posts on writing successful sex scenes. (Which I would link to but I can&#8217;t find it anymore.) So instead I will leave you with this blog post of Crusie&#8217;s: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.jennycrusie.com/for-writers/essays/glee-and-sympathy/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jennycrusie.com/for-writers/essays/glee-and-sympathy/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justine</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84796</link>
		<dc:creator>Justine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84796</guid>
		<description>Pixelfish: You may absolutely bag on the dead. Even Barbara Cartland. Who I found completely unreadable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pixelfish: You may absolutely bag on the dead. Even Barbara Cartland. Who I found completely unreadable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PixelFish</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84795</link>
		<dc:creator>PixelFish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84795</guid>
		<description>Oh, more awesome heroines: Amelia Peabody, Nefret, Vicky Bliss, and Jacqueline Kirby from Elizabeth Peters&#039; mysteries. Fully rounded characters with goals of their own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, more awesome heroines: Amelia Peabody, Nefret, Vicky Bliss, and Jacqueline Kirby from Elizabeth Peters&#8217; mysteries. Fully rounded characters with goals of their own.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PixelFish</title>
		<link>http://justinelarbalestier.com/blog/2009/11/17/blank-page-heroine/comment-page-1/#comment-84794</link>
		<dc:creator>PixelFish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinelarbalestier.com/?p=6859#comment-84794</guid>
		<description>Hrm, are dead authors okay to bag on? Because B----- C-------, a romance writer who was famous for being prolific, has a lot of BPHs. Her characters were usually orphans with a tragic past, but that was about as far as she got with giving her chars a history. I would put her chars into the BPH category because A) they were usually helpless or passive, never actors in their own drama. B) They showed NO preferences at all. When they became swept up into a life of luxury, they were considered raw material for being turned into a lady--superior lady&#039;s maids would help choose their clothing, tutors would teach them manners, and  their future husbands would invariably decide the course of their lives. Little or no trace of who they were before becoming the object of a man&#039;s desire shows up. C) They fell into romance rather than chose it. (There&#039;s a theory that before female sexuality became accepted, women wanted stories where they could experience female sexuality without having to take responsibility for seeking it out. This means you have decades of tropes like the arranged marriage, the ruined woman, and so on. In a society where female sexuality is embraced, these tropes become bitterly dated and regressive.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hrm, are dead authors okay to bag on? Because B&#8212;&#8211; C&#8212;&#8212;-, a romance writer who was famous for being prolific, has a lot of BPHs. Her characters were usually orphans with a tragic past, but that was about as far as she got with giving her chars a history. I would put her chars into the BPH category because A) they were usually helpless or passive, never actors in their own drama. B) They showed NO preferences at all. When they became swept up into a life of luxury, they were considered raw material for being turned into a lady&#8211;superior lady&#8217;s maids would help choose their clothing, tutors would teach them manners, and  their future husbands would invariably decide the course of their lives. Little or no trace of who they were before becoming the object of a man&#8217;s desire shows up. C) They fell into romance rather than chose it. (There&#8217;s a theory that before female sexuality became accepted, women wanted stories where they could experience female sexuality without having to take responsibility for seeking it out. This means you have decades of tropes like the arranged marriage, the ruined woman, and so on. In a society where female sexuality is embraced, these tropes become bitterly dated and regressive.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

