But, here, I will bring the focus back to my original post and say this:

As artists and creators (I am including the creativity of teachers, librarians, bloggers, and others who make daily decisions that help to create environments), we have the ability to shape people’s imaginations. Regardless of the genre we write, we are creating worlds for our readers, our listeners, our audience—worlds that function on accepted norms, sanctioned behaviours, and values that are upheld through the systems of those worlds.

It is within our power to use this ability to create environments that not only more accurately reflect the world our readers live in, but to offer new visions. To create and imagine new possibilities. If young (as well as not-so-young) people are shown a new way of being and a new way of seeing, they will rise to meet it. I am a firm believer in the idea of “if you can see it, you can be it.”

The hardest part is working against conditioning; unlearning everything we’ve been taught to believe is true. If we begin by first reshaping and re-configuring our creative worlds (i.e. worlds that we create), our physical world is sure to follow.

I hope that everyone keeps this discussion alive in other areas of their lives, even after leaving Justine’s blog. And I hope you keep checking back as I have no doubt she’s planning more posts along these lines.

For transparency sake, straight white male writing here.

i just wanted to throw my 2 cents in, mostly in response to the other white folks responding here. i hear and understand everything you seem to be feeling and sharing, and appreciate you being honest about it. i am responding mostly because i have felt and still struggle with a lot of the issues being shared.

i understand feeling attacked and defensive as a white person around this issue, it is how we are taught to feel about it regardless of what is actually being said about race. as white people, we tend (not all white people, but most of us) to think of ‘racism’ only as individual acts on an individual level. this allows us to continue (as a group/whole) to ignore the systemic white privilege/oppression that still so clearly exists and that as white people we still have a stake and play a part in, whether we do it knowingly or not. (yes things have changed. but we cannot continue to deny there are still serious racial disparities which exist everywhere-housing, employment, education, criminal justice and police brutality, health care, the military, violence etc on a domestic level, and as neesha so skillfully pointed out, on a global level as well)

i challenge the white folks on this posting to try and take a quick look at what is being shared about race here (and elsewhere) not as something about us white individuals, but in regards to us as white people as a whole. our very whiteness is very often made to be invisible, as then the idea and reality of white privilege can be. Makes it all the easier. you can examples of that posted here as well.

By talking about white people as a whole or group, i’m not ignoring the diversity of experiences and privileges within white society, but asking us to look at what it really means to be white – the good, bad, and the ugly. whether we asked for it or not. then once acknowledged, to do something about it! plus, if you i as a white person truly feel i am getting NO benefits what-so-ever from white privilege and racism, all the more reason to spaek out against it!!

i feel like im hijacking a brilliant post by a friend of color and making it all about whiteness, which is part of the whole problem to begin with, sorry! just wanted to throw in on a great discussion.

so to my fellow white folks here, there are some great resources from both people of color and other white folks to help navigate some of these discussions. Tim wise is a great place to start. he has posts on everything from reverse racism to what obama as president means and perhaps doesnt mean. tim speaks his heart pretty openly and strongly, so get ready for some more defensiveness, but muscle through it. there are plenty of others as well besides tim wise. i am happy to share them if anyone is interested.

i do work around gender based violence, and while of course racism and sexism are different issues (which always overlap), i talk with guys about how it is not enough to be the ‘good guy’ – ie “i would never hit or rape a women, so men’s violence against women isnt my issue, it has nothing to do with me’. but that is exactly the thinking that keeps sexism, racism, homophobia etc and the violence based on those issues alive and well. because while it might be a minority of men (or white people) that are INTENTIONALLY acting in racist/sexist/violent ways, it is those of us ‘good/not racist’ white folks who dont speak out against it or the benefits we all to some extent receive from it that keep the system thriving and hurting so many people.

if we see our white brothers and sisters, if we see white society acting in racist ways, it is our responsibility to challenge it if for no other reason then we are benefiting from that oppression whether we want to or not, and a great many people are continuing to suffer from it! we have the ability and responsibility to speak up and speak out.

so keep struggling, and keep listening (another thing white people usually arent taught to do well or often enough – i know i dont!!) we like to talk more – just look at the length of my post!

thanks again neesh and sorry so long!

Back to the representation thing. I believe we need as many different people in places of power and influences because we bring different perspective to the discussion and therefore the outcomes.

Difference allows for more ideas and more ideas leads to more options and solutions.

Let’s talk books again.This is going to be overly simplistic so bear with me. Imagine a group of editors discussing what to publish next. Everyone in the room is female, white, mid 20-30s. They’re all educated. They’re all readers. All of them have only read other educated, white, female writers. Collectively they’re favorite genres are chick lit and books published in the last 20 years.

They get in a stack of manuscripts. Books by men, books by people of color, themes include sci-fi, horror and true crime.

The editors look at the works. They agree the writing is competent, but none of the editors have a real point of reference to compare the works. These aren’t anything they read, these are books they normally don’t check out in the bookstore. They don’t have any marketing numbers to suggest how well these books would sell.

And whether one says it or not, somebody is thinking, “Where’s the chick lit?”

Now imagine if the group of editors had males, people of color, readers who read sci-fi, horror and true crime. That person can share a different perspective.

We’re not going to debate if that editor could influence the group but being there and saying something brings something that wasn’t there before- a different experience.

Difference matters.

Want a literary example of the danger of sameness? Read The Giver by Lois Lowry.

Thanks for writing. I know the frustration of getting the words to match what you think and feel. I also think I hear what you’re saying. Let me clarify a couple of things:

No, I do not want numbers/percentages per se. The issue is more complicated than a math formula. What I want is opportunity and access. I want race/gender/sexual orientation *not* used as a barrier.

When I meet someone like you, I see a young white teenage girl. I don’t assign judgment to who you are but I do see all of who you are and who you are is fine with me. I don’t draw any conclusions about someone until we’ve actually had an interaction. Does that make sense?

When you meet me, I want you to a see a short, black woman with locs and glasses and old enough to be your mother. I’m really okay with being short, black, wearing locs and glasses and being old.

I think this is where you’re confused. “Equal representation” means equal in proportion to population. Take the US Senate, which has 100 members. So in a fair world, wouldn’t there be 15 black senators? But at the moment, there’s only ONE black senator, and there has never been more than two in my lifetime.

Not that anyone’s saying we should pass a law that there HAS to be 15 black senators, only that the extreme difference between 15% and 1% representation has causes and effects that can and should be addressed. Those are the causes and effects we’re talking about here.

By the way, the US is not “majority male,” it’s majority female. And how many female senators are there? Seventeen out of a hundred instead of fifty. Don’t you wonder if this has effects on our laws concerning health care, child care, and violent crime?

But it’s interesting that you think that our country is majority male. Maybe you got that idea from the way that movies, the news etc. represents our culture.

My sister, AJ had some very hostile reactions to your comments…(She’s quite the hothead, I apologize.) Or now that I look at it some others comments but I want you opinion, and like I say later on, In no way do I mean this in any way hateful, rude or hostile. I’m just looking for genuine opinion.

It’s not that us white peopel feel you’re attacking us personally, it’s that we feel your list of qalitites are much too broad. ‘White heterosexual male’ sums up to a LOT of people. Some of which are bad and others are not. Each one though will have their own story, excuse or whatever you want to call it to actthe way they do. I don;t know if I’m explaining that right or not.

On another note, what we all want is to be able to overlook color correct? Or Sexuality, or Religion, etc. If we’re doing that then we need to think of people not as Blcak or White. The reason most of the U.S. is predominately male, predominately white, and predominately heterosexual, is because the demographics of the U.S. make it that way.

I’m not sure if this’ll make sense, (I’m horrid with words) but for things to be considered fair in terms of population and what not than about fifteen percent of the leading businessmen or women should be black. About seventy percent would be white, (haven’t checked the actual percentages btw) I figure about five or ten percent would be hispanic and then that five percent for the random other ethnicities.

Does that make sense? I’m trying to make it make sense… in my mind it does… I’m not sure how about on paper… tell me if I need to try to rephrase something…

but together that would make up the hundred percent ‘melting pot’ that is America. Now at times there might be more than seventy percent whites in control and at times there might be more than fifteen percent black. But it makes sense that way, at least in a world thats fair.

To me, and (I’m *really* not using a rude tone here, I’m sixteen and trying to understand) correct me if I’m wrong, it seems that the black people want to have an equal number of members in stuff and business men, same as the whites, Cut it fifty fifty. But then the hispanic people would feel inferior, the native american people would feel inferior and so on for each ethnicity. But Fifty fifty can’t be split by all the countries right? Fifty fifty is only split by two. No when the percentage of Black Americans and Whtie Americans evens out then yeah I agree, there’s something fishy about a predominately white board of colleagues.

And yes I’ll admit it’s sad that parties of people the same color will band together and, because they have the advantage of percentage, say majority rules. That does suck, a lot.

But would it not be the same if, (bear with me here like I said dunno if I can explaint this right) Fifty percent of the fifteen percent of black people have control? Then because you guys are a much smaller group, that has such a strong influence be a bit unfair? I know it sounds ridiculous but its got a bit of truth to it doesnt it?

Something like… welll…t he only anaolgy I can think of is like something out of the movie It’s A Bug’s Life. (Kid’s movie… google it) But basically the grasshopers are ganging up on the ants in this tree right? And the ants finally realize, hey we outnumber these guys lets unseat them. Something like that would happen eventually. Right?

I like this essay, though I disagree with a couple of paragraphs. It’s really good writing.

Isn’t want we want though, to live in a world where color is completely overlooked? Where it wouldn’t matter if the roomful of congress was mostly black people, or mostly white people?

Please help me to get whats going on in your minds. Are we thinking the same things or completely different things. Yeah I know the world ain’t fair and thats one very important variable to add in the equation.
But I genuinely want to understand this without trading hateful words as others have.

- Tracie

Susan, mind if I borrow this quote in the future? It’s one of the best ones I’ve heard in a long, long time.

Am I hearing you correctly: if we were generic we’d be just fine? Are you arguing that to embrace and celebrate cultural/ethnic differences is the problem and not racism?

If you are, I strongly disagree. I am not emotionally, psychologically or intellectually limited by my race, culture or gender. I am enriched by all the these facets.

We do not have to be same to respect and embrace one another, we must stop using difference as an excuse to reject one another.

Ted, your point is not lost on me nor on many participants in the discussion. *But* are you hearing us, do you believe us (all of us) when we say we do not look at you the individual and resent you?

Maybe, I was a bit snarky earlier suggesting the qualifier, but I resent having to qualify that I have white friends or racially mixed family or my lover is a different race or say I’m a black Quaker who attends Meeting with a majority white congregation.

Can we agree that we are not attacking the individual?

That is one of the BEST analogies I have heard yet in the differing effects slurs make, spoken from different lips. Thanks for the whole post, and I may steal your analogy in the future!

I never misunderstood you though I may have not been as articulate as others like Shveta. And at 44, I have heard whites respond like you so much that hearing it again is frustrating and makes a lot of people like me scratch my head and wonder if we’re getting anywhere in this dialogue about race.

As a black person, I learned a long time ago not to get angry or offended simply because someone mentions race. Maude, if I did, I’d be that ‘angry black woman’ and life is too short. That kind of offense doesn’t serve me or you.

You acknowledge the dilemma we face as people of color but in the same breath you are defensive. Just once I’d like to participate in this kind of discussion and not have to reassure you, that you the individual are not under attack. (But, my friend, Lisa, reminds me to be patient)

Let us focus on what others have made clear. We’re talking ideology, mindset, institution.

And may I point out an illustration of how white is seen as the norm and everything else is Other: Book blogs. How many blogs except the POC blogs prominently feature people of color? I have met people of color who don’t read poc writers. Some will say its because of the genre they read. I have seen people of color bloggers who do not promote books featuring people of color. I have never met a white reader who avoids white writers. And whenever I ask readers who do not read poc books regardless of race, would they read poc writers, the common responses are, “I like x genre. When I can find time, I’ll look for poc writers, as if poc writers don’t write x genre or “I don’t want to offend others so I don’t feature poc books on my site,” this one stings. But I’m going to leave that alone for now and lastly, “I don’t know any poc writers.” This one brings to mind Baldwin’s quote: I’ve been here 350 years and you still don’t know me.” Why am I invisible to you?

Keli, I’m not interested in blasting you. I want to engage you. I want you to be one less offended white person. I want inclusion not alienation.

Thanks for making this a conversation possible. Especially for making it possible in a YA safe space.

The thing is, they’re discussing white in the sense of an ideology. I understand feeling attacked, but I promise that isn’t the intention here.

The way our society is structured, for better or worse, we hold “white” as the universal experience. “White” in quotation marks, because again, I’m talking about an unconscious ideology, not any person in particular. Look around you, and you’ll see white people looking back–on TV, in magazines, on book covers (as we just went through with Liar), as there is an unconscious idea that white is normal, and everything else is Other. Alien, strange, weird, unknowable. And we’re having this discussion to try to bring that to light, so people recognize and work against it.

I don’t think you’re racist. I think we all have internalized racist ideas, which the structure of our society reinforces. That’s something different, and once we become conscious of those ideas, we can do something about them.

Thanks for understanding.

Susan,

I believe I said “I know that there is racism but reading that I felt a bit attacked for simply being white”,

“So yes, I am offended that just because I am white I fit into the demographic you were complaining about.”*

I never said Neesha called every white person evil. I said she is talking about a demographic. A demographic that has privilidge. I fit into this demographic by my skin color, only by the color of my skin so I feel a bit offended. I may be looked at differently because I am white so I may be given the benifit of the doubt by some people. I do know people that would never give a black person the benifit of the doubt and I think that is horrible. I am in no way denying that black people have had a hard past or that there are still people that would like to make thier lives hard.

Segregation wasn’t ended until 1964 (in America) so it makes sense to me that black people wouldn’t be the majority or have a 1:1 ratio in business or politically, it takes time for people to change and accept something they thought was wrong for many many years. I’m not saying its right but I am saying it takes time. People that are 40 and above remember a different culture but eventually, with time, only people that grew up in a culture of acceptance will be around and will know acceptance as normal and hopefully there won’t be one demographic in charge.

For example, in one lifetime a person could have seen the civil rights act of 1964 end segregation and see a black man become president. In a few more generations hopefully acceptance is the norm.
There will always be people that don’t like other people for a logical reason, thats too bad, its their loss and hopefully no one suffers because of them.

*I hope no one took complaining to mean whining.

What I disagree on is what to do about it. I don’t even disagree with what Ms. Meminger says to do about it on an emotional level. But what she’s proposing fails to address the underlying problem.

The underlying problem is that there are people in the world who have power, and they tend to be selfish. Sometimes in huge ways, sometimes in small ways, but the bottom line is that because power is so tightly concentrated, and because the people who hold it are not altruistic (any more than those of us who do not hold power are altruistic), things tend to go poorly for those who do not have power.

The ways in which they go poorly differ. For me, things are pretty comfortable. For a lot of people of color, things are also pretty comfortable. But for a lot of white men and women, and for a lot of men and women of color, things are anywhere from not very good to genuinely bad, or at least sporadically bad (e.g. an African-American man who is fairly successful, but still gets pulled over and harassed from time to time for driving while black).

So the point is that while there are things that are different for “white” people who do not possess power than for people of color who do not possess power, our situations are more similar than they are different.

But it is very convenient for people with power that we who do not have power consider ourselves to be separate groups. Even though we sometimes cooperate, because we feel our separateness so strongly, it is easy to pit us against each other, and we are remarkably ineffective at making the world a better place.